These are the sorts of text exchanges my buddy Matt and I have been having over the last few months, since the Flyers were, for the second year in a row, eliminated in the second round of the playoffs.
Matt, who once wrote a post for this site entitled Why Mike Richards is the Perfect Captain for the Flyers, pivoted and shape-shifted more quickly than Paul Holmgren at a press conference almost instantly when the Flyers traded Richards and Jeff Carter.
Like many, Matt believed (and still believes) that the trades were the right moves for the organization that hasn’t won a Stanley Cup since seven years before he was born– they acquired young talent, unloaded disinterested forwards, and got that goalie the team finally wanted yada yada yada something about this team is built to win.
I disagree with Matt. While I see his points, and acknowledge that the Flyers acquired a lot of young talent last summer, I am irked by yet another reactive decision by the organization that traded away six draft picks who played in the most recent Stanley Cup Finals.
And thus is the divide.
Ever since June 23, 2011, the day Holmgren shot and killed Richards and Carter – who, combined, were signed to 23-year, $127 million contracts – there has been a rift amongst Flyers fans.
In the far corner, Matt’s corner, wearing the Orange and Black trunks, are those who, from the moment the trades were made, championed the deals. They believed unloading two massive contracts, acquiring young talent and an all-world goalie was an absolute win for the Flyers. And they still feel this way.
In the other corner, wearing khakis and J. Crew sweatshirts (?), is everybody else. Those who, understandably, were irritated by what seemed like a knee-jerk reaction to a bad season, and whose feelings of dismay only worsened when Richards and Carter wound up in LA and did this earlier this week:
There’s a battle between those two groups of fans. I sit firmly in the latter corner, but acknowledge the points made by the Type OB fans, even though I may have called Matt a “dope.”
Me and him go way back and used to fight over which KaZaA tunes to play in our dorm room while we were roommates during our freshman year at Villanova. I once threw a notebook at his head and organized an awkward and drunken (I believe I was standing on a chair, swigging from a bottle of Vladimir) floor meeting to address an issue that had come up with our neighbor, who had hooked up with some B-lister Matt was getting with. Or had tried to get with. Whatever.
So we go way back, Matt and I. Our sports discussions are always spirited, but fun. And I haven’t thrown a notebook at this head since 2002.
As for the rest of you… we don’t know each other. And that means the subject of Richards and Carter quickly turns ugly and personal, especially on Twitter:
And in the comments:
You make yourself look so stupid with this post. Numerous time throughout the year you applauded the trade. Now all the sudden it is not so good. The Kings win the Cup regardless of the trade for Richie and Carts. Anyone can win a cup when your goalie is that much better then anyone else's
Kyle left college knowing 2 things. 1)The Flyers had a core of young talent and 2) His growing curiosity in men needed to be unleashed…In comes his creation of CrossingBroad.com. Kyle was a big fan of Philly sports and handy with computers so he decided to blog about it. Using his pedigree setting up MLB.com shopping carts, never being an athlete and lack of professional journalism experience, he created a website that finally gave him the attention he so desperately needed. The problem was Kyle soon realized he wasn't smarter, or faster out there than any other idiot out there with a laptop that called themselves a member of the media…his blog wasn't going well either, but Kyle had something up his sleeve! He was going to find pictures of his favorite athletes on Facebook and twitter! And steal intellectual property from websites like deadspin and create "TMZPhillyAthletes."
And of the less eloquent variety:
If kept them here we would have lost to Shittsburgh in round 1. Thats all their is too it.
So knock it the fuck off Kyle.
All because of a disagreement over the third most popular sports team in the city.
Anyway, insane people aside, I respect the opinions of those who applaud the moves: The Flyers do, in fact, get a number of young, talented players in return or as a result of the trades– Brayden Schenn, Sean Couturier, Wayne Simmonds, Jakub Voracek and Ilya Bryzgalov.
Richards and Carter were a bit of a problem off the ice. Reports range from them being awful with the media to taking prescription pain killers, and everywhere in between. Rumors go even further, saying the players were into recreational drug use. And, it seems, there was a disconnect between those two, the coaches and front office. So, trading them, at least on the surface, wasn’t an awful idea. Plus it freed up money to get a goalie.
I get all that.
But I also think that the out-of-nowhereness of the trades, especially after Carter had just been signed to an 11-year contract, was troubling. For five years, the team had touted Richards and Carter as the future. Yet after one early-round exit, they were traded.
To me, it was all too reactive, and I think Richards and Carter winning a Stanley Cup, playing major roles with the Kings, proves that they were quite capable of thriving in, or assimilating into, a winning environment. Or whatever hokey phrase you want to use. But, when those points are brought up, there seems to be head-scratching stock rebuttals, as reflexive as the Flyers’ instinct to trade their two star players.
Former Devil Bobby Holik thinks so too. He wrote this on his blog yesterday:
I read reports about the Flyers organization being happy the Kings won, and even rooting for them after their second round loss to the Devils. I can't see how the Flyers are happy. How could a team who decided Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, and Simon Gagne couldn't win in orange and black, feel great about guys who won the second they left Philadelphia?
I just cannot believe it for a second. I played in the NHL for almost two decades and never came across such a "friendly" attitude. NHL hockey is a tough and very competitive business.
How can the media not call out the Flyers for trading these guys? After all, it was a sudden shift from when they drafted them, nurtured them, and then built a Stanley Cup Final team around these players. Two years later, they got rid of them, and they go on to win. I respect the media, but they need to question Paul Holmgren and Ed Snider, because it shows a deficiency in the way the Flyers conduct their business.
We may not be media, in the traditional sense, but a lot of you read this site. So let’s do that. Let’s call out the Flyers for trading these players.
It is with great pleasure that I give you The Definitive Mike Richards and Jeff Carter Argument Guide – a crib sheet, if you will – to combat your enemy, no matter which corner you sit in. But mostly if you sit in mine.
Since Christian Bale is a badass motherfucker and The Prestige is one the best movies ever, I shall present the arguments to you in the form of a 19th century magic trick.
Henceforth we go!
Every great magic trick consists of three parts or acts. The first part is called “The Pledge.” The magician shows you something ordinary: a deck of cards, a bird or a man. Or a simple hockey opinion. He shows you this object. Perhaps he asks you to inspect it to see if it is indeed real, unaltered, normal. But of course… it probably isn’t. The second act is called “The Turn.” The magician takes the ordinary something and makes it do something extraordinary. Now you’re looking for the secret… but you won’t find it, because of course you’re not really looking. You don’t really want to know. You want to be fooled. You don’t want to find fault with your hockey team. But you wouldn’t clap yet. Because making something disappear isn’t enough; you have to bring it back. That’s why every magic trick has a third act, the hardest part, the part we call “The Prestige.” The part where you find the error in the ways of your hockey team.
The pledge: Trading Mike Richards and Jeff Carter, based on reasons that had nothing to do with their play, was dumb. And they proved the Flyers wrong, at least in part, by winning the Stanley Cup one year later.
Turn 1: They had nothing do with it. It was all Jonathan Quick. Anyone with half a brain could see that. You know nothing about hockey! Go back to blogging about baseball, cunt gobbler.
The Prestige: Thanks, I suppose there are worse things to be called than someone who gobbles up penis sleeves. But I think it was meant as an insult.
Yes, Quick was – by far – the main reason the Kings won the Stanley Cup. It’s funny, though, it’s mostly the same folks that point to Quick as the reason the Kings won who get all pissed off when Bryzgalov gets blamed for a lousy season.
They say things like: It’s not his fault. It was all the defense’s fault. Anyone with half a brain could see that. You know nothing about hockey! Go back to blogging about baseball, cunt gobbler.
Odd. So let me get this straight: a great goalie can go it alone, and succeed regardless of those in front of him. But, when a goalie is bad, it’s not his fault– his defense is to blame? Weird.
Make no mistake, lemmings, Bryz was bad. Awful, actually. You don’t get to 37th in the league in goals against and 57th in save percentage without being what the Spanish call El Terriblé.
But, you’re right– it wasn’t all Bryz’s fault.
The fact is, the players in front of a goalie do impact his performance. The Flyers’ defense wasn’t good. The Kings’ was great. The goalies just magnified those things.
The Stanley Cup champs didn’t have many great scorers, but they did have several impressive two-way players, and that’s why Quick stopped 94.6% of the shots that came his way in the playoffs. He’s great. But he had some help. Help from guys like Richards and Carter, who are both very good two-way forwards.
And they kill penalties.
Liberated with 3:25 left in the period, Richards made it a penalty-killing quartet, jumping right into the spirit of things. He blocked a pass from Devils point man Marek Zidlicky and took one stride past the defenseman. Zidlicky had no choice but to trip Richards, negating most of the rest of the man-advantage.
Richards and Carter were third and sixth, respectively, among Kings forwards in penalty kill minutes during the playoffs. Carter played 28 short-handed minutes. Richards? 43.
Quick was great. Stellar, even. But he had help. Help from guys like Richards and Carter.
Turn 2: Richards and Carter only played a small part and were role players on the Kings, unlike their starring roles with the Flyers.
The Prestige: No.
They were third and fifth in scoring, respectively, among Kings forwards during the playoffs.
Carter was tied for the team lead in goals, with 8. Richards was fourth in scoring. He had 16 points in 20 games. Carter? Sixth. 15 points in 20 games.
Carter scored a hat trick in Game 2 of the Western Conference Finals. He scored the game-winning goal in overtime of Game 2 of the Finals. He scored two goals, including the Stanley Cup winner, in Game 6.
I’ll go on.
Richards was second on the team in power play ice time. Carter? Fourth. Richards was tied for the team lead in power play scoring. He, Anze Kopitar and Drew Doughty all had six points.
Remember, while these numbers aren’t otherworldly, the Kings were a defensive hockey team. They didn’t score many goals. Eight goals and six power play points from Carter and Richards were major contributions.
And while there is merit to the argument that both players benefitted from being a part of the whole – rather than the faces of an organization – you cannot say they played only a small part for the Kings. They simply played a part. Part of a whole that won the Stanley Cup with good, team hockey.
But we’ll leave you with this, which I found on the Internet. So it must be true.
In the 41 games since [Carter’s] arrival, the Kings went 29-9-3. "Definitely, this is the team we should have been all season, especially when Carts first got here," defenseman Drew Doughty said. "That made our team the way it is now and we definitely didn't play the way we could until the playoffs started."
Turn 3: I don’t mind the trades, because the Flyers got good, young players in return who will make this team better for a decade.
The Prestige: I’m dizzy.
Both Richards and Carter are 27-years-old. They, too, happen to be good, young hockey players, who were signed-on with Philly for the next decade.
The part of this argument that irks me most is not liking Schenn, Courturier and Simmonds, but it is the blatant ignoration (word?) of Richards and Carter as being good, young players themselves. Holmgren himself said that Schenn projects to be like… MIKE RICHARDS.
So why, then, trade a guy as he’s entering his prime with a Stanley Cup-contending team for a guy who, in three years, may be as good the guy you had?
Because it had nothing to do with what happened on the ice.
These moves were made for off-the-ice reasons. Something, something that we will likely never know for certain happened. Maybe it was drinking. Maybe it was drugs (legal or illegal). Maybe it was attitude. Maybe it was leadership. But it had nothing to do with hockey.
Giroux parties, too
The Flyers had built Richards up to be the next Bobby Clarke. And while trading Carter may have been necessary to sign a goalie, trading Richards was reactive.
But hey, in three years Brayden Schenn might be just as good. I can’t wait.
Turn 4: The players the Flyers got in return are solid, fundamental hockey players. They play team hockey. The Flyers told me that in their promo videos.
The Prestige: Not exactly. Not yet, at least.
Schenn makes bonehead plays and lousy decisions with the puck. For every jaw-dropping hit he produced, he also turned the puck over at the blue line, left his man on defense, or passed when he should have shot. He has a long way to go before approaching fundamentally sound.
Simmonds does dumb shit. His ceiling is Scott Hartnell. Simmonds is a big, above average skilled, run-of-the-mill NHL forward, who the typical fan likes because he plays tough and transcends a stereotype that no one wants to talk about. He’s a nice player, seemingly a good kid, and had his moments this year, but there are 100 of him in the NHL.
Voracek: an another above average NHL forward with plus offensive skills (see also: the first and second lines of every other team in the league).
Couturier, who was drafted with the pick obtained by the Flyers from the Blue Jackets, is probably the only player who, at this point, you could call fundamentally sound. He clearly has the most upside of any of these guys. He’s shown good decision-making capabilities and is a defense-first two-way forward, who is extremely patient with the puck. Sort of like Mike Richards.
The Flyers would like to see these guys develop into a core of moderately-skilled but sound hockey players, who win with their play at both ends of the ice. Sort of like the Kings.
Pic via (@jrmccro)
For once, the Flyers finally had two players that stood out from the norm. That much was obvious.
Richards has won a championship at every level– juniors, AHL, Olympics, and now, the NHL. Every member of the Flyers organization built him up to be the cornerstone of the franchise. The team rewarded him with a gigantic contract.
In 2010, both front office members and fans alike were praising him for helping to lead the seventh-seeded Flyers to the Stanley Cup Finals. Remember this?
Sure you do. Who was questioning his leadership then? No one.
Carter? At ages 23-26 he scored 29, 46, 33 and 36 goals, respectively. This season – a down year plagued by injuries, a devastating trade, the worst team in the NHL, and the city of Columbus – he scored 21 goals in 55 games. Plus eight in 20 playoff games.
The Flyers had those two guys – a two-way forward leader and an elite goal scorer – plus Giroux as three players to build around. The team reacted, and started from scratch with guys whose ceilings are no higher (and probably lower) than Richards and Carter. That’s the reality, whether you want to hear it or not.
Turn 5: The Flyers wouldn’t have won the Stanley Cup this year with Richards and Carter, anyway. So shut up.
The Prestige: You’re probably right. A depleted defense and the absence of Chris Pronger probably would have did them in. Plus they might not have had that all-world goalie. But the Kings probably wouldn’t have won the Cup without those guys, either. They barely made the playoffs, and, as you read, players largely attribute the Carter trade as the turning point of the season.
If Carter had been with the Flyers for Game 3 against the Devils – you know, the one where Schenn’s lousy line change cost the Flyers the game – maybe he would have scored the game-winning goal in overtime, like he did against the Devils in Game 2 of the Finals.
Obviously, you can never know what would have happened. But Richards or somebody else would have been quite capable of stopping Evgeni Malkin in the first round the same way Couturier did, and I’d take Carter over Voracek or Simmonds any day of the week.
Maybe Richards and Carter would have been able to slow down the Devils, like they did in the Finals. We’ll never know. But the Flyers would have less question marks if those guys were on the roster for next season.
Turn 6: Claude Giroux would have never become the player he did with Richards and Carter standing in his way. He’s a frigging beast. A ginger god, put here for my masturbatory pleasure. And we are only now just realizing it because he doesn’t have those two pill-poppers standing in front of him.
The Prestige: I agree that he is a ginger god, perhaps put here for our masturbatory pleasure, but he was friends with those pill-poppers, who were actually not standing in his way at all. Hell, G was practically part of the family.
Giroux drinking with Mike Richards' dad in 2009
Sure, Giroux may now be the face of the organization, but his success on the ice has little to do with Richards and Carter being gone. Do you really think two all-star caliber NHL forwards playing on the same team as Giroux would have hurt him this season?
Do you really think having Richards and Carter take some of the opposition’s focus away from Giroux would have hurt his development?
Make no mistake, this was not addition by subtraction. This was not Bobby Abreu. Or 2005 Jim Thome. There was plenty of ice time to go around. Richards and Carter were not standing in Giroux’s way even a little bit. And had they been on the team this year when Giroux broke out, they would have become more second line than first line, much the way they did with the Kings, who, again, just won the Stanley Cup.
Instead, playing behind Giroux were Danny Briere, James van Riemsdyk’s girl power, and 900-year-old Jaromir Jagr, who stopped being able to move in the playoffs.
Turn 7: This set the Flyers up for the long-term, idiot.
The Prestige: Ultimately, these moves will be judged in the long-term. If Schenn and Couturier hoist two Cups in the next five years and the Kings, beneficiaries of a hot goalie, bottom out after their two mega-contract forwards can’t resist the temptations of Southern California and spiral out of control with recreational drug use and hookers, then this will go down as a brilliant decision.
But we don’t know what will happen, and I’d like to use the philosophisizing of Peter Laviolette, who, during 24/7, explained that he likes to judge things by looking at the short-term and the long-term.
So let’s look at the short-term, because that’s all we have to go by right now:
Not so fucking good. The Flyers got no further this season than they did last year. They got out from under massive contracts only to get under another massive contract with Bryzgalov, a 31-year-old goalie, who was terrible in his first year here and handled the media the worst way an athlete possibly could. Also, struggled with fans.
Richards and Carter, who were jettisoned away, played major roles in helping their new team, the Kings, win a Stanley Cup.
The short-term sucks.
In whichever corner you stand, you have to at least question these moves, and not just blindly accept every decision the Flyers make. Because it’s been the same trick for 37 years. And one of these days, if not now then soon, the search for a Stanley Cup may take you to a basement somewhere, where the lifeless cloned bodies of seasons past reside, all with one ominous omission: none of them are wearing rings.
As for Richards and Carter, though? Well, you’d have to cut their fingers off to take theirs.
Third most popular team in Philly? wait until August and the Phils are 15 games out, the Flyers will regain thier position as the #2 team in Philly. I’d also say that during the mid to late 90’s this was a hockey first town.
That said..as a seson ticket holder, I’m happy with the trades, and think that they are a going to be a favorite to win the Cup this up coming season.
I see you point though, and I’m not thrilled the Kings won, but vs the Devils, I’ll take it. And remember Carter and Richards both missed significant time this past season. Had they still been on the Flyers, they might’ve easily missed the playoffs, really only having Giroux, Briere and Hartnell( and Bob) to carry them for 40 games.
the amount that this shit is harped on is unreal.
like the points you made but I don’t understand how you could predict the ceilings of couturier and schenn after just their rookie years… a little early? considering schenn was considered the top NHL prospect last year and couturier was a predicted to number 1 overall before he got mono… just give it time then we’ll see
I’d bet 1000 dollars right now that neither Schenn nor Simmonds will EVER be as productive as Richards or Carter. Very good article. It’s a shame that the Flyers always trade away young talent too soon. It’s a shame that it may have been prevented had blogs such as this one not harped on their drinking. PS: Giroux and the new set of youngsters are out in Old City all the time too….
That is not Richards dad.
And while you are still crying over these 2, you missed Giroux and Talbot hanging with BizNasty all last weekend in Montreal. But yeah, let’s keep living in the past.
LOL @ David S. Typical Flyers fanboy.
Funny, the Flyers seem to be cup favorites every year, but at the end of each year there’s always a lengthy explaination offered up by the Flyers core fanbase as to why it didn’t happen again since 1975.
Wow…way to long to even read…Kyle you know shit about hockey stop taking 1-2 fans and their responses and making some witty ass comeback…
Quick, Doughty, Kopitar, Penner, King, Scuderi, Mitchell all had great post seasons. They had the hottest goalie and a defense in front of him. As well as an offense that played D first. I wont discredit Richards and Carter for helping in the run but they were not the reason. The kings could have picked up anyone other than Carter and most likely would have still won.
Stop with his bullshit of blaming bryz. Quick was awesome, had a D in front of him and they scored some timely goals to win. That’s why they have the cup. Bryz was awesome in round 2 against the devils…the D sucked, the offense went dry…
Learn the game dude your blog is turning to shit…
PS we traded carter to Columbus not LA so credit LA for going and making that trade (even though I think they lost on that deal) rather than blaming the Flyers for trading him.
Brayden Schenn = Alexandre Daigle
Did anyone actually read this entire thing? Damn
The biggest issue is that Flyers fans thought Richards and Carter could play with Crosby and Malkin. They arent that type of player. They arent superstars. When they can play secondary roles they can succeed because they arent asked to do every game, like superstars… So Richards and Carts went along for the ride with a hot goalie, a ridiculous performance from their captain, and timely goals through the whole playoffs. Hey man, you want be that naive to think Richards Carts Giroux and Boborovsky would have ended pretty… thats up to you.
I love how you assume the vast majority does not like the trades and agree with you and the people that agree with or have accepted the trades( don’t keep bitching about them and posting but hurt pics) are either abnormal or pretending. I would say the majority of the people that read this site think your wrong and a huge tool bag.
Meh! Bale is ten times badder as Batman!
@snow balls at santa….
AMEN…Carter and Richards cannot lead a team, they ride the coat tails of others though. They are ROLE players not the SUPERSTARS we paid and expected them to be and they couldn’t handle the spotlight here.
Can you please stop posting about these guys? I’m sick of seeing more posts about two former flyers than actual Philly sports teams.
You make no mention of their no trade clause that both Richards and Carter have. It kicked in at the start of this year and goes for about 10 years!
Probably the 2 worst trades in flyers history letting cart & richie go. They go & win a cup to say f you to snider n homer. Hey Ed, how come every former flyer wins a cup when they leave your team. Fire homer & amnesty bryz
So Richards and Carter were here for six years, never won the Cup and they are gone for one, win a Cup because their goalie was sensational, and both trades were bad?
This is why you’re a blogger and not a national writer.
Put Bryz, Fleury, Leighton, Boucher or any other goalie except Quick on that team, and would they still be Cup champions? I’ll be generous and say MAYBE, but highly unlikely. Both players were here for six years. Both played with future Hall of Famers, who had won the Stanley Cup prior to being here (Forsberg, Hatcher, Pronger) and couldn’t get it done. Carter scored two goals to win the game against a team that only scored one because Carter’s goalie was their MVP. It doesn’t matter how many goals you score if your goalie gives up 3 or more a night. The Kings had 7 one goal games. 3 in the Finals alone. They won because of GOALTENDING. That’s it. Richards and Carter were ok, but without Quick, they would have been watching the Finals like the Flyers.
I really don’t understand how anyone can make the argument the Flyers would have won with Richards and Carter, when for 6 years (5 playoff appearances) the duo did squat, especially Carter who had a chance to win Game 6 against Chicago and couldn’t elevate a puck over a goalie on the ice.
Get over the man crush on Richards and Carter. They won because, as you said, the Kings were a TEAM that played good, fundamental hockey. Not because of them. I’ll take Simmer, Schenn, Cooter and Voracek over two underachievers any day.
And I’ll add one more thing, just because I’m curious what your response will be:
What happens if the Flyers win 2 or 3 Stanley Cups in the next ten years, and this is the one and done for the Kings?
I wonder what you’ll post then…
RIP Crossing Broad as a relevant blog…I’ll be taking my talents to the 700 level
It’s old and tired already. Not to mention, easy. Easy to take the typical viewpoint that the Flyers blew it. They didn’t get it done here. What more do you need to understand the situation? They were super fortunate to end up on the same squad as Jonathan Quick and the Kings….so….?
You mentioned 4 players that the Flyers obtained. That’s two more than they gave up in that turn around. These kids can play. If the ’11 Flyers had J. Quick and his defense, hell, Chris Pronger, they could have been hoisting Lord Stanley’s hardware.It’s really not that complicated.
Why are flyers fans hypnotized by Ed Snider?
Dude hasn’t won a cup since 1975 & he gets a free pass every year
LOL Ray you’re a fucking flamer. It’s not ten years from now. And that won’t happen. Richie/Carts- 1 Homer/”X Live” Eddie- 0
Anyone that knows anything about the NHL could see that there was no way the flyers could win with Carter and Richards on their team. Your main point is remember the shift, well I chose not to remember the shift against the Habs, but do remember the standard Richards even strength shift- a 20 second skate around the neutral zone in which the out of shape captain was the first one to the bench, often 15-20 seconds before his linemates. I also remember his media gems, such as “lifting weights won’t help me score goals” and his bitching that Sam Carchidi wrote articles about his drinking (which Carchidi never did- that was other writers) Richards was a loser when he was here, a person that didn’t care about his employer (the flyers) or his customers (the fans). As far as Carter, It as really great to see that someone rewarded for so little work. Maybe if he could have hit a wide open net, his cup parade would have been on broad street in 2010.
Although I’m tired of hearing about this. I still have split feelings on it. It was definitely a reactive trade as a result of 1 bad season and Richards not getting along with Pronger.
Cooter was 2nd to only Matt Read for pickup of the decade, and Voracek is going to be a total stud if he can find a consistent scoring touch.
HOWEVER, Schenn is a wanna be Mike Richards with the “potential” to score a few more goals but everyone forgets it’s not his first season. He played with the Kings and was not good enough to stay in the pros. Had the Flyers not had the injuries they did, you wouldn’t have seen Schenn till the all star break MAYBE. Simmonds is a slightly more physical Hartnell with a lot less scoring ability.
The Flyers had to drop the Carter contract to sign a goalie I get it, and I’m ok with it. The Richards deal was needless and actually stupid. If they wanted Simmonds and Schenn they could have gotten them + Bernier for JVR which was the original proposal and if they wanted to dish Richards later they could have obviously gotten Jack Johnson who was on the market.
You say Richards/Carter played with future hall of famers like Foresberg, Hatch, and Prongs….YES in typical flyers fashion they got all of those players on their way out of the league!!! Remember, the whole Foresberg/Lindros thing?? Yea Put Pete in his prime on a team with Carter and Richards….probably a slightly different out come. Now lets look at some facts.
Fact: Bryz had a bad year. However, that was amplified by the lack of forward help in the defensive zone (and matt carle) which was a strength of Richards
Fact: Quick had a great year, that was amplified by the defensive mindset his forwards had in helping him out, which was a strength of Richards. You didn’t see LA’s centers leaving a guy in the slot hacking at Quick did you?
Fact: The Flyers PP and PK both took a major hit losing these 2 and until playoffs that was a determining factor in a lot of games. The Kings PP&PK went through the roof. If you even try to argue this fact you have no hockey sense at all.
Fact: Faceoffs, enough said!
Fact: Justin Williams 2 Cups, Rod Brind’amore Cup, Patrick Sharp Cup, Simone Gagne Cup, Mike Richards Cup, Jeff Carter Cup….Anyone the flyers received in these deals NO CUP!(while with flyers)Lets face it, Flyers decision making hasn’t been the best.
Finally….Fact: The Kings won the cup the same year as the trade….The Flyers didn’t, end of argument!
Long Term, we’ll see what happens and I hope it works out….Short Term, Flyers look like idiots….AGAIN!
Ray- I guess you didnt read the part of the post where I answered the question.
Would of loved having Giroux on the 2nd line getting 12 minuets every damn game wouldn’t you? Giroux scored 8 goals in 10 games, not the 20 it took Carter geniuses.
Great moves. The reason every year (and you don’t understand) that teams win is because of their goalies. Kings were what 2 games out from making the postseason?
You go on runs, you get hot at the right time.
Do you really think the 2010 team is that much better than what we have now? Are you ignoring missing the best player all year? Must be ingesting those bath salts.
Who the hell cares
JP going nuts with that post . Fucking loser
I loved richie. Thought his trade was wayy too reactionary and that he got the shaft with the media and fans in this town over half a bad season out of 5 in a flyers uniform..that being said I was in no way rooting for the guy, and seeing him lift the cup less than a year after he was deemed inadequate to lead us to one was about as pleasant as a scrotal infection….
Yet at the same time, they wouldnt have even sniffed the finals if it werent for quick…plus, the most important thing is that we made out really well with the trades and should stay contenders for the foreseeable future (pending a suitable pronger replacement and some system adjustments from Lavy). If anything, I don’t really get why there’s a debate about this because there are too many what ifs and too many conflicting emotions and situations surrounding this issue for this to be split down the middle…Plus, we just look stupid arguing about nothing, really, while our former core is laughing in our faces right now.
The thing that i think we should be talking about is what Holik brought up..Seeing flyers and flyers fans at all levels actively rooting for A) another team and B) another team full of guys that are laughing at us right now made me sick. Full on flyers sites like BSH and others who tout being “true flyers fans” writing full length posts about why we should be rooting for LA and why it doesn’t matter that former players are lifting the cup in black and grey is dispicable. Christ on a stick, are we that desperate as a fan base that we need to root for something called flyers west? I think we need to chill the fuck down, get drunk and just forget about this and look onward (and upward) to next season. Go flyers.
Most be national long comment post day.
lol @ there being a rift btwn flyer fans about the trades
outside of 16-24 year old females i would say that 90% of flyer fans would do the same trades again…and the 10% switched their opinions since the kings won the cup
You make it sound like the Flyers traded Ritchie and Carter straight to LA.
I want my 2.5 minutes back. I’m talking about everything before the jump, of course. I value my brain too much to read anywhere past it. That Niagara Falls wire walker with an unadvertised harness dude from last night actually wasted less of my time than you just did. You’re not wrong about the internet muscles people, because it’s really really easy to get tough when you’re behind a keyboard, but at the same time you chose to be a public figure by writing a blog and appearing on TV and on csnphilly.com. Internet muscles come with the public scrutiny. And if you were on the other side of this issue, you would be getting internet muscles from the side you are currently on. So screenshotting people being overly zealous with their anti-you sentiments just comes off as whiny and a weak way to pad your argument (“see, I MUST be right because just look how ALL THOSE PEOPLE act!” It’s exactly what the national media and fans of other teams (and Republicans?) do when they whine about how barbaric Philadelphia fans are (or how much of a socialist Muslim Nazi that they think the president is?)).
Oh, and as far as your opinion of the trades goes, I 100% disagree with your logic. But that is much less important here.
Kyle needs to get carters chode off his face. Everything he said is true from both pro and against these trades but he failed to recognize one major point….they arent leaders in la. They arent in the spotlight like they were here. Are thry great role players? Sure. Are they the top line and captains of a championship team? Only in the ahl.
Although I will add that it isn’t accurate for people to chalk it up entirely to Quick and devalue the impact of Richards and Carter. I think that it was a Cris Carter-type situation where getting moved off the team they were on was a necessary part of their development. Being counted on as secondary scoring rather than as the faces of the franchise certainly helps just as much. I don’t really think they do what they did in LA here if they don’t get traded. That doesn’t take away from them as players, especially considering that Richie got them damn close in 2010. But this is Brown/Kopitar/Doughty/Quick’s team, not Richards/Carter’s team, in the same way that the 2010 team was Richards/Carter/Pronger’s team and not Giroux’s.
Why should we question the trades? I will take a young, dedicated core over two drunks who skipped a few practices to stay in NY for Jay Z’s MSG shows. Only to come back and lose the game(s).
Do I want someone like Carter whose response is “Nothing” after being asked what he learned after having a one on one face off session with Clarke? Fuck. No.
The Kings won bc of Quick.
The real question is why we signed Bryz.
It doesnt matter because in 3 years Holmgren and co. will TRADE GIROUX and COUTOURIER thats what the Flyers do trade young prospects
Until Snider sells the team the Flyers will never ever win another cup…the culture sucks and is too rooted in playing “Flyer hockey” of old
Oh my god Kyle would you shut up. Don’t you have another Jayson Werth post to write or don’t you need to go over to Rittenhouse Square to hide in the bushes and take pictures of Cliff Lee and his family??
Championships, in most sports, are a fickle thing. Think about the NFL for a second – the Tyree catch in 2008 and the Welker catch this year. MLB – Utley’s hit to the warning track in game 5. That’s how close it can be. If Kovy’s crossbar shot in game 2 OT is 1 centimeter lower, NJ takes game 2. Game 1 also went to OT. My point is, playoff games are often decided by the smallest of margins (save for 2012 PHI-PIT) that I don’t know how you can make definitive judgement either way. The Flyers lost this year because they got overconfident after beating PIT the way they did. They are good enough to win a cup now, just as they were with Richards and Carter – any team who makes the playoffs has a chance. In a championship-winning playoff run, things just seem to go right for a particular team. 75% of it is confidence, and 25% is luck. Unfortunately, the flyers got OVERconfident this year, which ended their run. They will learn from it and i look for them to make a longer run next season.
Kyle still doesn’t get hockey. Just because the Kings got better through the trades, which they did, does not mean that the Flyers got worse. Ok Jeff Carter had that big OT goal, but so did Dustin Penner. Dan Carcillo scored a big OT goal for the Flyers once. It happens. The Kings ran through Kopitar, Brown, and Doughty, with Quick being the MVP.
The Flyers had too much money tied up on forwards and had to address goaltending. Would you have wanted Vokoun? Briere’s monster contract would have been the #1 option to move this time last year, but he has a NTC. Same with Hartnell, who was on the hot seat before having a career year this season. Would you have regretted those players being traded as well? Probably only in the irrational reactionary way you are doing now if somehow they won the Cup by being the missing pieces on a team with a solid core in place already.
Every season there are about 10 teams that can make a run for the Cup. Juggernauts are rare or extinct in the salary cap era NHL, there are just teams that get hot at the right time. Trades like that are why the Flyers will continue to put themselves in that group of 10 with a chance to win season after season.
…Bobby Holik wrote that, for real? I suspect that bit was proof-read and edited, or maybe ghost-written.
My memory is imperfect…wasn’t Bobby Holik the guy who chicken-winged Simon Gagne with a textbook elbow-pad-to-head-blindside-when-the-target-wasn’t-looking, leaving Gagne with a severe concussion? I can see the replay in my head, Gagne skating towards the bench (and towards the camera) and the opponent (Holik/Devil, I thought) skating away from the camera in the other direction, and out and up comes the elbow and Gagne was essentially TKO’d.
…so if my memory here IS accurate, then FUCK WHAT BOBBY HOLIK HAS TO SAY, and FUCK WHAT HE HAS TO SAY MORE if he has the gall to mention Simon Gagne at all without also issuing an apology for being the hulking, dirtbag, NYR-money-stealing loser that he was when he became an $8mil pylon towards the end of his career.
If it wasn’t Holik who did that, then meh, whatever, Holik is still a dirtbag.
The Flyers acquired talented youth in the wild trades they made. The players they traded away filled different roles where they eventually landed, and maybe those roles, which required less of them than being captain and top-scorer, allowed them a more comfortable fit on the LA roster than they had in Philadelphia.
You can’t pin a second-round exit on a management decision that resulted in two guys not playing for the team. That would be like “blaming” Pronger for a second-round exit. Bryzgalov played only his first season in Philadelphia. Give the guy some time to acclimate; he will already have a better perspective next season, knowing what he now knows about the meat-grinder that is Philadelphia professional sports. Would there have been a second-round exit if Quick was in net for the Flyers? It’s not like we haven’t seen a pattern of hot-goalie plus great defense leading teams to cup wins.
Winning the cup requires a special alignment of factors, some of which are not in the control of anybody. Injuries, luck, defense, goal-tending, team chemistry, scoring, coaching, special teams – all of those things line up for the winning team every year. If it was as easy as just going out and buying a roster then everybody would be doing it. Yeah, its frustrating watching FOUR former Flyers scoring points and winning cups on the same team, but that doesn’t mean Flyers management is not passionate about winning and about trying to assemble the right ingredients to win. Although that frustration is there, how cool was it to watch Ron Hextall raise the cup? I thought that was AWESOME, and I’m stoked for the LA Kings, who just gave hockey a monumental boost in LA.
Who cares anymore. #whensthedraft #ineedmorebeer
This guys is a fucking clown. If the Kings would have lost the SC or didn’t get there this wouldn’t be an issue. Do you see how good the Kings are. You act like Holgrem came out and said that we traded Carter and Richards b/c they are terrible hockey players. Richards is the man but the trades we got were awesome.
Oh wait are these the same guys who were basically blowing Coots after the penguins series. SC for Carter or not, I would trade Carter for Coots/Voracek again 10 x over.
I also believe most of Philly were saying this about Simmonds (who by the way was the addition to the trade, since it was more for schenn). “We wouldn’t trade Simmonds back for Richards now straight up”…. So LA gets Carter to add to their really good team, great goaltending and awesome defense win a CUP and Holgrem is an idiot….
Stop trying to analyze and keep stalking athletes and the woman then bang. Thats the only thing your good at.
“LOL Ray you’re a fucking flamer. It’s not ten years from now. And that won’t happen. Richie/Carts- 1 Homer/”X Live” Eddie- 0″
Since you’re so brilliant and can see into the future, what are the lottery numbers for this week? I could use a few million. I’m not a flamer, just someone who is pointing out to Kyle that it’s easy to say, “SEE THE FLYERS WERE WRONG AGAIN!!!”, like every other Carter and Richie fanatic. But bottom line is, that if these trades bring the Flyers a championship or two in the next ten years and only bring LA one, the Flyers will take that in a heartbeat. And so will you.
You’re a typical Flyers apologist. “I mean how could anyone have any critizism them for this trade?!? It was a fucking perfect deal for the Flyers! AND they free’d up enough money to get Bryz. Yeah so what if Richie and Carts won a cup 11 months later? Flyers are gonna win 7 cups in the next 10 years! ORANGE AND BLACK BABY EDDIE SNIDER TILL I DIE!!!!!”
Undervalued every player we got because you don’t know shit about hockey. Go back to sucking the Phillies dicks. You mention Carter scoring 29 goals when he was 23, Simmonds scored 28 this year when he was, wait for it, 23. Voracek, who is only 22 and played mostly 3rd line minutes, was one of the best players for the Flyers in the playoffs, and he had 10 points to show for it. Schenn was injured for a majority of the year and I can understand being upset trading Mike Richards for a guy who is going to be Mike Richards, but the guy was the top prospect outside the NHL last year and he’s only 20 years old. The player you undervalued the most is Couturier. The kid is 19 years old and he completely shut down and frustrated the league MVP. You say Richards or Carter may have been able to do that this year, but what makes you think that? It’s not like Richards or Carter were ever able to beat the Pens while they were here. Once Couturier adds some size to his frame, he is going to be a superstar.
You see that the Kings won the Cup and automatically call the trades bad for the Flyers. You don’t know hockey, you called the players we got in return average, but don’t mention that we were able to get Grossmann for the pick we got in the Richards deal. The Flyers are only going to get better, and they looked pretty damn good this year. Go back to the Phillies and Eagles you fucking retard.
Also, those contracts are wayyyyyy too long. The Kings are going to be stuck with mid 30s Richards and Carter, when the drug use finally catches up to them. Good for Homer getting rid of them when he could. That is all
You can plan a pretty picnic but you can’t predict the weather.
I generally agree with CB, here. I think it’s sane and sound reasoning. Even at the time, I liked both trades and still hold out hope (that I don’t think is too unreasonable) that the payoff will be better for the Flyers in the long-run. But yes, right now it looks like we got shafted.
1. One of the things that drives me nuts about the Flyers is their propensity to trade away young talent. Sharp, Forseberg, Williams, Fedontenko (who we traded to take the #2 pick in the draft, Joni Pitaknen who we later traded away), Prospal, etc, etc. Forget for a moment the point that a lot of Flyers-defenders are making by saying the Kings just got hot at the right time. While that theme has been playing out in every major sport lately, to catch that spark at the right time requires more than just a red hot goalie. You need a cohesive group of players. Sometimes adding an extra piece like Carter or Richards works for a team like the Kings who had harnessed a lot of its own talent but was a few cogs short of competing for a Stanley Cup. While no one can guarantee that the Flyers would definitely had won had they not traded these two guys, it’s indisputable that the Flyers have made it more difficult themselves. I feel like all the effort the Flyers have put into digging out from the miserable 06-07 season has been lost and now we have to start over again with a whole new crop of unproven players. And look at our farm system now. It’s crap!
2. We’ll never know for sure why the trades were ultimately made (aside from freeing up cap space to nab Bryz – see point 3) from a lockerroom or off-ice standpoint. I will say that giving Richards the captaincy happened too soon. I don’t think he’s that type of guy. That’s not to say he isn’t a good player – which he certainly is – but he’s not someone you build your franchise around. That said, both he and Carter brought skills that the Flyers lacked this year.
3. As far as trading these guys to free up money to sign Bryz, I’m not convinced this was ever prudent reasoning. For one, signing any NHLer for 9 years, let alone one who’s over 30, is never a good idea. Of course, if Bryz brings home a Cup, then all is forgotten, but there surely could have been less risky avenues to rectify our goalie situation. The contracts of Briere (although I really like Briere and his soft playoff hands) and Pronger.
4. Final point. Snider needs to show a little more patience. This team will always compete because Philadelphia is the most rabid hockey city south of the border. You can’t blow up your core that took several years to build and expect to win the Stanley Cup the next season. As I said earlier, now we have to start all over again. Luckily we’re not the worst team in the league this time, but I think we’re a long way off from seeing this team win two playoff rounds again.
Kyle, sorry but you did a terrible job of proving you’re not a retard when it comes to hockey. You’ve just solidified that in my mind.
i mean, the simple fact is the kings won the cup with those guys that were “holding us back”…
to me, it seems those who say the flyers are setup for the long term are like those eagles fans who enjoy the draft/pre-season and discuss the salary cap or depth charts for hours on end. it seems that’s where most of the people on that side of the argument get their entertainment from, not from actually watching (or focusing on the results) the game…
i enjoyed the article as someone who’s been watching the flyers over 25 years, not cause i’m a crossingbroad fan, i enjoyed it because it just fucking made sense to me. the flyers made the moves to dump em and the kings won the cup…
what? aint no more to it…
This was clearly the worst trade in Philly sports history. While Richards was out sucking Carter’s magnificent, throbbing, veiny, pulsing, 17 inch penis, we were stuck with Claude girouxs flaccid, hairy, red, pimply, spermy 2inch penis smoothly sliding in and out of Scott hartnells tight, pink, silky cunt. Anyone who thinks that carter and richards weren’t directly responsible for LAs cup is a frothy puddle of vaginal discharge from RHEA HUGHES mangled, jagged, scarred, dried up cunt. Her clitoris is so small that you’d even be able to fit it inside Carter’s small fucking skull. He can lick my sweaty Jewish scrotum whilst fingering my warm, gooey, cum filled asshole while simultaneously singing me the chorus to Paul Simons new hit, “Chop off my dick and fuck the hole.” I hope Richards gets drunk and exposes his hairy Gentiles to sunday school children. That guy is so fucking dirty I swear he’s going to get fingered tonight. And as for Simon gagne? He can fuck Pamela Anderson in the dick for all I care. That guy does so much coke and has had so many penises rammed into the back of his throat, it’s no wonder he had concussion problems. More like cock-cussion problems. Suck my dick Fag Hextall.
Without Richards and Carter, the Flyers ended up in the same exact spot as they did last year: a second-round exit. So what’s the big deal? They took a step sideways, not back or forward, exactly as Holmgren said last June, except this time, there’s much more room for improvement. Just because Richards and Carter won the Cup in LA doesn’t mean that they would have won it with the Flyers this year. The Kings already had significant pillars in place in Kopitar, Brown, Doughty, and Quick. This Kings Cup team was not built around Richards and Carter; they were complementary pieces to complete the puzzle.
Richards and Carter were traded because they had no-trade clauses that were scheduled to kick in last July 1. Holmgren knew it was then or never to trade them, otherwise they’d be committed to them for the next decade, and the offers for both of them were too nice to turn down. What people seem to forget is that, at the time, the general consensus was that Richards and Carter were either both staying or both going, and that trading just one of them would not work, i.e. Richards would have been just as pissed as Carter that Holmgren betrayed his handshake agreement with Carter that he wouldn’t be traded.
Funny that Holmgren is going through the same thing right now with James van Riemsdyk, whose NTC is kicking in this July.
Part of the problem was that the Flyers have had too many centers for the last 3+ years. In their 2010 Finals run, they had Richards, Carter, Briere, and Giroux, all of whom were centers.
To combat this problem, the Flyers put Briere on the wing for most of the regular season, which was a disaster. Everyone knows he’s much better when working in the middle of the ice and behind the net. They kept Giroux as the regular season third line center with Asham and JVR on the wings.
In the first round series that year against the Devils, Carter took a Chris Pronger shot off the boot and broke his foot — which turned out to be the best thing for the team. Briere could then slide back into the second line center spot. When Carter came back a few weeks later, Briere was playing too well at center with Hartnell and Leino (remember how good that line was?) to move him back to the wing, so they put Carter on Richards’ wing instead.
After last season, Holmgren knew Giroux was good enough to be the first line center. And they knew they’d be wasting Briere using him as anything less than a second line center. And he knew he could get Brayden Schenn for Richards, who could be their third line center — and maybe he could have a Giroux-like breakout in the playoffs, if not during the regular season.
They’d still have a bona fide first line center in Giroux instead of Richards, bona fide second line center in Briere instead of Carter, and potential-laden third line center in Schenn instead of Giroux. And their defense would be untouched. The team would be taking a step sideways, just a few years younger, and would have a goalie that didn’t belong in the AHL. What he didn’t account for was taking center Couturier at 8th overall, but then again, no one thought he would be available then, anyway, and it’s fine because Briere’s contract will be up soon. The trades made perfect sense then and still make perfect sense now. I don’t really see an argument otherwise, because what Richards and Carter did/do/will do on a DIFFERENT TEAM means nothing for the FLYERS at all.
Hey. Look who is partying in Vegas.
My only issue(s) with this blog posting are the loose reference to making an issue about the fact Simmons is black, too many unsubstantiated references to drug use (the argument works without those references), and the omission that there were very real problems with these guys in the locker room and with management. Something had to be done. Something was done. It’s really too bad that theses teams didn’t meet in the SCF.
we get it kyle, your gay for carts and richie
Good lord, who has time to read all this?
You know, you can edit things once they’ve been typed. The Internet doesn’t magically capture them permanently for all eternity.
I’d be embarrassed to admit that this is how I spent my Thursday/Friday.
They had their chance to lead our team and they didn’t. They didn’t lead LA either. Brown, Kopitar and Quick did.
we traded carter to columbus.
So, the trades were “…worst trade[s] in Philly sports history,” AND “…great moves.” Nothing can be more clear from this article and its subsequent comments: the moves were GAMBLES! Holmgren traded Carter to get the “best goalie in free agency”, and he traded Richards because Lavi, for whatever reason, wasn’t keen on his leadership. These are two very logical reasons to make trades, even if they seem slightly less favorable than we would like. Relax, everyone. We just have to sit back and see how things turn out. Nothing definitive can be said yet. The dice are still bouncing around.
Lol Kyle, your logic is as transparent as the magician’s tricks. Carter could score, but never played defense here in Philly. Fact.
Richards couldn’t be a leader. Fact. Richards was a great 2 way player. Fact. Giroux is a great 2 way player. Fact. Simmonds, while not the brightest, is only 24 and has a much high offensive ceiling then the man you compared him to.
I don’t know if you really watch hockey, or just look for more closet case references to make in your blogs, but anyone who watched the Kings knows that Quick was 75% the reason why they won. 23% defense. 2% Offense.
And that’s what it takes to win. Look at the last 3 cup winners. Quick, Thomas, Fleury. All top tier goalies at the time. Hot at the right moment.
Your best bet at this juncture of your writing career is to stick to being the TMZ of philly blogs. Your knack for sports is Angelo Cataldi at best.
OH and Voracek is much better than “average”. He has complete potential to be a solid 2 way player capable of putting up 25-35 goals a year. You seem to knock the players we got not understanding how young they are. Richards and Carter didn’t “breakout” until they were 25.
Oh look, everyone is turning 25. A full year in a system where they all had success.
I hate when people precede their opinions with “as a season-ticket holder”.
*gun to head*
News flash…Your opinion doesn’t carry any more weight than the next guy. STFU
guy mike and jefe are awesome friend and hokey palyers but we got good deal lot of young guy on team so future is bright. believe in us. thx)))
I was not surprised at all about the Carter trade. There were simply too many rumors. And I think the Flyers got a great return for him. It was the Richards trade that shocked me. Maybe the trade was made because he couldn’t get along with Pronger. In hindsight, well, that’s a moot point now, since Pronger is almost surely done. Carter I can live without. Richards I really liked as a very good all-around player.
Note to Bobby Holik – Gagne spent a year in Tampa Bay before going to LA. He did NOT win the cup “the second” he left Philly. And the Flyers needed to get some salary off the books, and knew it was his time. I love the guy as a player, but it was time.
“Part of the problem was that the Flyers have had too many centers for the last 3+ years. In their 2010 Finals run, they had Richards, Carter, Briere, and Giroux, all of whom were centers.”
Yep, big problem during that Finals run. Those extra centers really hurt them that year. It really had them hitting a wall in overtime of Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals.
Kyle, you’re ignoring the fact that they made the playoffs that year by virtue of a shootout. Jeff Carter’s stats in those playoffs? 12 GP 5 G 2 A -5 +/- and one HUGE shot right in to Niemi’s glove that would have sent it to Game 7, if he scored. But they won the Cup this year so the Flyers made stupid trades. You’re an idiot.
People are in such denial. Everything he said in this article is fucking true. These guys were traded away because they “weren’t going to win a stanley cup”- THEY JUST DID. The Flyers were close to a cup. All they needed was a goalie, that’s it. Instead, they cleared out a successful team AND STILL DID NOT GET AN ELITE GOALTENDER!!!! The Flyers have a long way to go before they make this trade seem like a good thing.
“Yep, big problem during that Finals run. Those extra centers really hurt them that year. It really had them hitting a wall in overtime of Game 6 of the Stanley Cup Finals.”
Oh, Mr. Scott, of course you were too ignorant to even read the rest of the post. But that’s expected, so it’s cool.
He’s too high on himself to read the rest of anyone’s argument. His word is end all be all.
Wow, a great read. Thank you for an intelligent analysis on the Richards Carter trades.
If i were a player for the NHL I would be thinking twice about coming to the Flyers given how they’ve treated many of players like Lindros, but especially Richards.
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